A Conversation between the author and Malashri Lal

Malashri Lal who is a Professor of English at the University of Delhi is an avid reader of Madhu Tandan’s work and is attracted to the interpretive possibilities of dreams which are almost like narratives of the unconscious.  She engages Madhu in a deep conversation about the book and its principles.

Malashri Lal : Your book Dreams and Beyond  begins with describing   a variety of dream types: the “ordinary and little”  dreams that occur often, the  “theatrical dreams” that offer a full narrative sequence and the “nightmares” that come to haunt.  Since all human beings are “dreamers” your book immediately captures  attention. What inspired you to write this book and did you have an “ideal reader” in mind?

Madhu Tandan : I have always been interested in my own dream-life and have been recording my dreams for more than 30 years. Gradually I realized dreams can unearth past conflicts, give perspective on current dilemmas, help solve problems, provide guidance and direction when needed. Besides this, they anticipate important turning points and sometimes they ask questions whose answers go into metaphysical realms.
The narrative of my first book Faith & Fire was threaded by my dreams, mirroring and amplifying my experiences in a Himalayan monastery. After its publication, many people spontaneously shared their dreams with me and so Dreams & Beyond was born. It has more than 250 dreams. Many people also told me that they do not dream. My book is for both types. It details the convincing laboratory research that shows everyone dreams at least 4 dreams every night. There are no non-dreamers. During the course of our lives we enter our dream worlds half a million times. My book strives to explore the dream from multiple perspectives – the scientific and the spiritual, the psychological and the paranormal. This pluralistic approach afforded me a wider perspective to dreaming which I hope is reflected in my book.  My ideal reader would be those who are curious to know what significance we can ascribe to this daily artefact of our lives, however strange we may find them.

ML: You have pointed to the “metaphorical language of dreams” and said that an astute interpreter can decode this language to her or his advantage, in the sense that dreams are often precursors to occurrences that are yet to be, or provide a leap in understanding the problems that we are facing. Do you think any person with average education and a curiosity about dreams can become self trained in interpreting dreams, or does one require special training?

MT: Each of us can interpret our own dreams because the dream belongs to the dreamer and not to the analyst. In the earlier part of the last century it was believed that the dream is the province of a specialist. Later, this was questioned and dream discussion groups formed where each member, in turn, narrated their dream. The others offered suggestions about its meaning, taking care to preface their comments with “If this was my dream, I would …” The role of the analyst was replaced by a facilitator who at no point wrested control of the dream. This way the dreamer was ensured safety and discovery, “safety” being important since a personal aspect was being exposed to the response of the group.
Initially, due to the unfamiliarity of the language, we may find dreams strange and difficult to understand. However, after a period of familiarisation with the help of a friend or facilitator, anyone can grasp their meaning.

ML: Can you please give an example of how would you would interpret a dream.

MT: My method of interpretation stands on two legs: An event of the recent past, which will help locate the key element or metaphor of the dream, and the ability to form a bridge from this element to our everyday world. Most dreams will have some part that is replaying a thought or a happening of the immediate past. However, this event is not replayed exactly as it happened. Something is added or subtracted from it. This change is the strange part of most dreams and it may alert you to the main metaphor of the dream or its key element. This is the first leg. The second one is usually provided by the dreamer – a personal association to the key elements in the dream, giving the clue to the specific issue being highlighted.

ML: So the art lies in locating the key element of the dream?

MT: Except that you don’t look for it or let it attract your attention. For example take a very simple dream of a woman walking her dog in the neighbourhood park. Nothing seems to stand out, but if the woman is Indira Gandhi (or Mrs Thatcher) then it would draw your attention and this may lead to the meaning of the dream. Alternatively, if the woman is not Mrs Gandhi but the dog keeps barking at every passer-by, then this element would become the key. Or, if the dog is well-behaved but is being held by three leashes, then the interpretation would first consider why three leashes? Does your friendship with some person have three constraints that hold you both together? I have interpreted the dog to represent friendship. Suppose you dreamt night after night that a woman is walking her dog in the park. Chances are that you will investigate whether a woman does come to the park with her dog or not!
Let the strangest part of the dream speak to you.

ML: In the western intellectual tradition, dream interpretation is closely tied to Freud’s pathbreaking work on the “unconscious”. However the cultural contexts would define the manner in which symbols are read, don’t you think? Are the analytical methods evolved by Freud pertinent for those who undertake dream work in cultures that are outside the west?

MT: Cultural contexts are important when understanding symbols. For example, the Christian colour of mourning is black, while for the Hindu it is white - white being the preferred colour of the bridal attire in the West. So, a woman clad in white appearing in a Hindu’s dream may have funerary significance while in the West it may be a cause for celebration.
Though Freud’s theory is controversial, he still remains foundational to dream interpretation. We need not subscribe to his view that all dreams have a sexual foundation, even though some do. However, even non-Western cultures can usefully employ his conception that many a dream has a message from a hidden part of us, which can be unravelled by eliciting the dreamer’s associations to individual dream elements. This method distances itself from the dictionary approach that had prevailed from earlier times. A wide range of meaning could be attributed to any part of the dream by different dreamers. The colour blue, for example, can have a host of unrelated meanings – pornography (blue films), aristocracy (blue blood), expansiveness or freedom (blue sky), clarity (blue ocean), grief (feeling blue) among many others.
The symbolic significance of a dream will depend on the personal and cultural associations of the dreamer and does not have a pre-determined meaning.

ML: Your book includes a substantial chapter on the Hindu view of dreams and makes numerous references to the theory of Karma. The foundational concepts of such theory differ from assumptions in societies that do not believe in rebirth. Must a practitioner of dream interpretation accept Karma theory before launching her or his work in a Hindu community? Will such interpretation not be linked to a religion and be limited by it?

MT: It is not necessary that the dream interpreter must personally subscribe to Karma and rebirth, but must be familiar with it so as to fully grasp the import of dreams of say the Hindu community. Motifs from the culture and religion of our upbringing express themselves in our dreams.  Hindus often dream of karmic symbols and of rebirth just like Christians dream of sin and redemption. Understanding these religious motifs within their cultural context does not, according to me, represent a limitation but, instead, may throw light on the deeper significance of the dreamer’s life situation and how he or she should negotiate current difficulties.
I wrote about the Hindu view because many people have paranormal dreams – precognitions, telepathic and out-of-body experiences. The Hindu view provides philosophical legroom for them. People also have dreams about death and are bewildered by them. Then there are dreams where a deceased loved one ‘visits’ the dreamer. There are also numerous accounts of dreamers journeying to the world of death – the near-death experience in dream. How may we understand these? The modern theory considers ‘death’ only as a metaphor while interpreting these dreams. The Hindu view is comfortable with these kinds of dreams, as it presupposes a continuity of some form of consciousness after death. In fact, all religions, including Christianity, believe in an after-life, though they do not subscribe to rebirth and Karma.

ML: Take primary cultural symbols, for example Kali or the Madonna. Do they exert archetypal power over our dreaming self? In other words, is the day time imaging of these iconic figures repeated in our dreams or are they changed dramatically?

MT: According to one approach dreams of gods symbolically refer to the infant’s experience of the parents as all-powerful and all-knowing. Another approach views gods as part of the cultural inheritance and the need for the dreamer to integrate the attribute of that specific god within themselves. For example, a woman dreaming of the dark, fearsome Indian goddess Kali with her tongue hanging out, holding a sword in one hand and a severed human head in the other would find a message in her dream that tells her to  be assertive  when the situation arises and not to remain docile or afraid to speak her mind. At other times the god or goddess may be a means to link us to sacred, transpersonal energies beyond the mundane.

ML: Most people report dreams about being pursued, flying, falling being naked, loosing teeth, failing examinations,  etc. Do these repetitive images signify something “generic” or are they specific to the dreamer’s condition?

MT: These dreams are often called typical or common dreams and one could call them generic since many people have them. Confronted with these “generic” dreams modern theory does a U-turn. While the earlier predetermined meanings of symbols had been discarded, with these “generic” dreams a common interpretation is advocated. It is argued that almost everyone has dreams with these themes and they, perhaps, have the same meaning. Studies have shown that dreams of being pursued and of falling from a height are the two most common kinds of dreams. These are not indicative of unhappy outcomes. They are usually expressive of some anxiety chasing the dreamer. In this type of dream the pursuer never manages to catch up, but the threat remains unremitting. Dreams of falling (from a height) are expressive of their perception that they have fallen in the estimation of themselves or others. Failing an exam could often signify an apprehension before an event important for the dreamer. Dreams of being naked in public have nothing to do with sexuality, but with feelings of being exposed, embarrassed or ashamed.  Flying dreams have a connotation of `flying high’ of being successful, of feeling elated, of discovering ability or a talent. They could also indicate being in love.

ML: Examples of dreams in your book, though plentiful and wide ranging, still relate to people from the upper or middle classes. At one time, the dreams of royal people were granted high significance. Then, post Freud, the dreams of educated people who could seek out an analyst come into the ambit of recorded interpretation. What about the dreams of the poor, the destitute children in a city slum, the old discarded widow in an ashram—have you done any work with their dreams?

MT: No. I have not been able to interview the poor or the marginalized. My book is not the outcome of a survey of a wide cross-section of society. Instead it is a record of the dreams of people who spontaneously shared their dreams with me. Some were not even looking for an interpretation, but had felt awed by their dream and its relevance to their personal life. My book is about the mystery of the dreaming mind and attempts to provide a variety of frames to understand them.

ML: What sets your book, Dreams and Beyond, apart from other books about dreams?
MT: I think I have already answered this in the other questions.